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Thread: Minimum Wage Backfire

  1. #41
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    i guess it depends on your actual workload


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  2. #42
    Bad-ass Member guts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eedna View Post
    from my resume

    Supervision of entry and exit of upscale sub-division, securing homes still undergoing construction and offered for sale, reporting maintenance needs, maintaining gatehouse computer systems, answering phones. Supporting On-Site Real Estate agents. Assessing and correcting issues with entry gate and monitoring and maintaining CCTV system. Light concierge duty, providing a ‘hotel at home’ type experience for residents. Supervision and training of gatehouse sales office personnel. Writing and adjusting policy as needed. Responsible for all scheduling and ensuring adequate coverage. Recording payroll. Maintaining sales lead database. Maintaining resident information database. Inventory and replenishment of gatehouse sales office supplies and marketing materials. Assisting in creation of marketing materials including photography.

    i have 6 people under me and i'll have worked here for 6 years come next week actually

    rent on a 2 bedroom around here ranges from ~850 in the ghetto to 1000 someplace where you probably won't get your car broken into

    i could live comfortably and build a retirement savings on 19-21 dollars an hour

    No offense intended but your job sounds cushy as hell. Do you work a standard 8-5 40hrs a week? Do you ever get tips?

    I'm not sure what policies you're restricted by or what skills you possess but have you considered doing side work for these rich bastards? Computer repair, pool cleaning, dog sitting, house sitting, pressure washing, painting, cleaning, etc...? There has to be something you can do that they'll pay for. You have access to the clientele, you now need to figure out how to separate them from their cash.

  3. #43
    Entensity Vet eedna's Avatar
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    I work 5:30am-3 3 days a week and 5:30-4 2 days a week and I pick up whatever else needs to be picked up, no tips. My bosses daughter gave me an apple pie because she was leaving for a ski trip and wouldn't have time to eat it once, that was cool. I like my job a lot most of the time, the only aggravating things are the usual bs you deal with as a manager in any setting, employees being retards and a few of the residents are very clear that I'm 'the help'

    I do some photo/video work for one of them occasionally for her shoe charity that she runs. I can't do anything that I'd need a house key for, something to do with insurance.
    Last edited by eedna; 10/31/2014 at 12:38 am.
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  4. #44
    Holy shit I rule! Cipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elastic View Post
    Your bold text nailed it right on the head. You have lazy groups of people who want to make a career out of flipping burgers when the fact of the matter is you can't. Flipping burgers is a job for kid's in HS and maybe even possible while going to college just to bring in a few extra dollars. Hell, I can even see an adult doing it for a few months in the event they're laid off from their current job and want to keep busy/need to bring in money until their next job. People that aspire to flip burgers for 30 years and then complain that they're not earning enough money should be thrown into a vat of lye.
    You're making some big assumptions. There is always going to be a large portion of the population that is too stupid to do anything other than flip burgers. These types of people used to work in factories, but with all of the manufacturing and unskilled labor jobs either leaving the country or being taken over by illegal immigrants you have a major problem on your hands. Fast food and retail used to be HS jobs, now it's about the only thing this chunk of the population can actually do. So we can either have this demographic on welfare, or we can give them a higher paying minimum wage, either way everyone is going to be paying for it. Unless you believe we should have eugenics and exterminate this largely useless group of people.
    Last edited by Cipher; 11/03/2014 at 12:51 am.

  5. #45
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    You're making some big assumptions. There is always going to be a large portion of the population that is too stupid to do anything other than flip burgers. These types of people used to work in factories, but with all of the manufacturing and unskilled labor jobs either leaving the country or being taken over by illegal immigrants you have a major problem on your hands. Fast food and retail used to be HS jobs, now it's about the only thing this chunk of the population can actually do. So we can either have this demographic on welfare, or we can give them a higher paying minimum wage, either way everyone is going to be paying for it. Unless you believe we should have eugenics and exterminate this largely useless group of people.
    why fidget with market forces, which undoubtedly have negative and possibly unforseeable consequences though; when you could instead adopt policy that brings industry back to the US and also work to make skilled training more accessible? Seems like that'd be a better solution than just "you hafta pay 'em more". Especially because eventually that "more" is going to be more than their work is worth (I don't think ~$10/hr is more than the work is worth for the most part, ATM).
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  6. #46
    Bad-ass Member guts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    You're making some big assumptions. There is always going to be a large portion of the population that is too stupid to do anything other than flip burgers. These types of people used to work in factories, but with all of the manufacturing and unskilled labor jobs either leaving the country or being taken over by illegal immigrants you have a major problem on your hands. Fast food and retail used to be HS jobs, now it's about the only thing this chunk of the population can actually do. So we can either have this demographic on welfare, or we can give them a higher paying minimum wage, either way everyone is going to be paying for it. Unless you believe we should have eugenics and exterminate this largely useless group of people.
    This (the bold text) is the part that bothers me. The reason "everyone is paying for it" is because the government likes to fuck with capitalism. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but the market will decide a fair wage. It always has. And I honestly think that "fair wage" would be higher if minimum wage didn't exist. Say what you will in opposition to this but keep in mind that the market does this exact thing for all jobs that don't pay minimum wage. From cable installers to brain surgeons, the wages for these jobs are very similar from company to company (assuming they're geographically close). Why wouldn't this principal work for burger flippers as well?

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    Except that market forces will always cause minimum wage to go down because that's how the bottom line works. Without a law saying you have to pay your workers at least X, employers wouldn't pay their employees anything. I don't understand how you make the assumption that "everything would work itself out"
    Xeon has an excellent point. The people who used to be working in factories are now working at McDonald's. That's solely on the country and not on the people.

  8. #48
    Bad-ass Member guts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Except that market forces will always cause minimum wage to go down because that's how the bottom line works. Without a law saying you have to pay your workers at least X, employers wouldn't pay their employees anything. I don't understand how you make the assumption that "everything would work itself out"
    Xeon has an excellent point. The people who used to be working in factories are now working at McDonald's. That's solely on the country and not on the people.

    That's not how it works. People won't work for free. In order for these companies to fill their open positions they will need to compete with other companies trying to do the same thing. That competition will cause the wages to go up until it hits a point where it's profitable for the company and acceptable to the employee. If anything, this rate would continue to rise as inflation eats away at the value of a dollar. It's a basic supply and demand type of thing.

  9. #49
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
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    Uh, how do you think child labor happens? A lack of jobs and an overabundance of population. If we hit that point, no amount of "competition between employers" will make minimum wage increase.
    If the employers know that people will take the jobs no matter what, no one is saying "work for free," but if you had to choose between not working, and working at a 7 dollar an hour job, you'd take the seven dollars an hour.

    The real problem here is that minimum wage has not had a cost of living adjustment. There are many cities and areas where 7-9 dollars as minimum wage doesn't cut it. It's really obvious that in these areas a person with an 11 or 12 dollar an hour job would be able to live normally.
    The real question is what do you think a person deserves for working 40-50 hours a week? Don't you think they deserve to be able to afford an apartment and clean water? No matter what job they have? Obviously someone working at a minimum wage job isn't going to have a bunch of toys/gadgets, but they should be being paid enough to afford housing and food. That's not possible with our shitty minimum wage in some areas.

  10. #50
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Uh, how do you think child labor happens? A lack of jobs and an overabundance of population. If we hit that point, no amount of "competition between employers" will make minimum wage increase.
    If the employers know that people will take the jobs no matter what, no one is saying "work for free," but if you had to choose between not working, and working at a 7 dollar an hour job, you'd take the seven dollars an hour.
    This is based on some false assumptions. People already don't take jobs that pay "too little" in favor of taking unemployment benefits. Market forces do and will control the cost/value of labor. The problem as already pointed out ITT is that the segment of the population that has to try and support a family on minimum wage is only in that position because there are no longer very many options for unskilled work. This does not mean the solution is to artificially inflate the value of low value labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    The real problem here is that minimum wage has not had a cost of living adjustment. There are many cities and areas where 7-9 dollars as minimum wage doesn't cut it. It's really obvious that in these areas a person with an 11 or 12 dollar an hour job would be able to live normally.
    The real question is what do you think a person deserves for working 40-50 hours a week? Don't you think they deserve to be able to afford an apartment and clean water? No matter what job they have? Obviously someone working at a minimum wage job isn't going to have a bunch of toys/gadgets, but they should be being paid enough to afford housing and food. That's not possible with our shitty minimum wage in some areas.
    I agree the minimum is in need of an adjustment, but for the rest of this, see above.
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  11. #51
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    Not all UI lasts forever.


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    Not all UI lasts forever.
    never said it did. Just using that as an example that there are a lot of people that choose to either NOT work or work off the books rather than work a minimum wage job. That's all. And Hoop's scenario assumes there is no corporate accountability to the public at large (I'm not going to bother pointing out all the examples of public pressure directing corporate decisions, if you don't think it's a factor, you're just plain wrong), and implies a scenario that all companies would pay less and less if they weren't restrained by law. Law is not what makes a company pay people something. In fact, the minimum wage is not infrequently used as justification for paying a low wage (similar to how FMLA is actually used as grounds to dismiss employees rather than protect their jobs).
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  13. #53
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
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    All assumptions aside we have to accept the fact that we will always have a portion of the population who is wholly unskilled, untrainable or uneducated. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because those people might still want to contribute by working forty or fifty hours a week.
    It's too bad we have a system where someone can work hard fifty hours or more a week and still be unable to pay for basic living needs.

  14. #54
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    All assumptions aside we have to accept the fact that we will always have a portion of the population who is wholly unskilled, untrainable or uneducated. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because those people might still want to contribute by working forty or fifty hours a week.
    It's too bad we have a system where someone can work hard fifty hours or more a week and still be unable to pay for basic living needs.
    I couldnt agree more. My point is merely that by choosing the expedient solution: "pay em more (ad infinitum)", you only serve to grow the segment of the population that works hard for 40hrs a week and still cant afford basic living needs.

  15. #55
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
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    I think it's a strength of some of us here on the boards, that we can disagree on the small points but still pretty much agree on the big overarching problems.
    Is that how logical smart people do things?
    Also I know we'll both agree that this is not simply a "raise minimum wage" problem. This has a lot to do with like Xeon said, an extreme lack of labor jobs, with call centers and manufacturing jobs being shipped overseas. Not to mention our education system being very broken in many ways. We can't just expect everyone to alluva sudden go to college to get better jobs because that wouldn't solve the problem either.
    We'd end up with millions of people with degrees and not enough jobs to fill them.

  16. #56
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    like that isn't slowly becoming a problem already


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    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
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    Well yeah, that's the problem with trying to have these kinds of conversations, is that there's so many issues that all feed into each other.
    Of course we are going to have employment/wage issues with all the jobs that were shipped overseas, of course we are going to start seeing signs of overpopulation or just plain underemployed populations.
    Just ask Tom how fucking ridiculous it is to get into being a Lawyer, we simply have too many people for too few jobs. Maybe where we start seeing differently is that I think jobs like Mcdonald's or other minimum wage jobs are still important to our infrastructure. Important enough that the people working these jobs shouldn't be treated like second class citizens. They shouldn't be forced to work 2 or 3 times the number of hours.
    They should simply not be able to afford to live in luxury. The difference between being a doctor and working at a minimum wage job is that the Doctor can afford steak, going golfing and a Mercedes. The guy working at McDonalds should be comfortable in his Studio apartment with his 32 inch flat screen watching downloaded/Netflix'd movies.

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Well yeah, that's the problem with trying to have these kinds of conversations, is that there's so many issues that all feed into each other.
    Of course we are going to have employment/wage issues with all the jobs that were shipped overseas, of course we are going to start seeing signs of overpopulation or just plain underemployed populations.
    Just ask Tom how fucking ridiculous it is to get into being a Lawyer, we simply have too many people for too few jobs. Maybe where we start seeing differently is that I think jobs like Mcdonald's or other minimum wage jobs are still important to our infrastructure. Important enough that the people working these jobs shouldn't be treated like second class citizens. They shouldn't be forced to work 2 or 3 times the number of hours.
    They should simply not be able to afford to live in luxury. The difference between being a doctor and working at a minimum wage job is that the Doctor can afford steak, going golfing and a Mercedes. The guy working at McDonalds should be comfortable in his Studio apartment with his 32 inch flat screen watching downloaded/Netflix'd movies.
    again, I agree with this. IN MY OPINION, where the rubber meets the road you tend to find a lot of people in these low earning jobs are there because they make poor life decisions. BECAUSE they make poor life decisions, they are less able to live on their wages (no ~$7/hr isn't enough, that's not the point I'm making here). How many times have we all seen people broke as shit buying cigarettes, booze, lottery tickets, etc while they are talking on their iphone? I'm not saying they can't have those things at all, I'm just saying that if you struggle to feed your kids it is probably in part because of your spending choices.


    Anecdote: at one time in my life I worked two full time jobs, first one starting at 7a to 3p, then the next one at 3:30p to 11p (I used my lunch break at my second job to allow me to start shift at 3:30, so I could get there from the first job). I sold ALL of my shit (PS2, guns, stereo, speakers, etc). I lived on ramen noodles, for real. No beer, no ordering out, no fun. All so I could afford to support my now wife for 2 years as she finished school (I only lasted that double job pace for a year, but kept the second job at part time after that). One job paid $3/hr above minimum wage and the second job paid minimum wage. I was able to pay rent, utilities, groceries, car insurance, her books, and a good chunk of her tuition on those earnings. I get that there are people that work hard, I've done it (still work hard, just not that kind of schedule); but I also know that it isn't THAT hard to make ends meet when you're properly motivated and make the right choices. My experience is what informs my beliefs, I'm at least self aware enough to realize some people are incapable of making good choices so it falls to society to lend support. I'd just prefer that support be in the form of "teaching them to fish" rather than "giving them a fish".
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  19. #59
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    except some people don't want to "learn to fish"


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    except some people don't want to "learn to fish"
    and I don't want to help them anymore then. Seriously. I am happy if some of the benefits of my labor go to help someone who needs it improve their circumstances. But I want no part in paying to support someone with ZERO interest in taking care of themselves. Luckily THAT portion of society is very very small (not counting those that are physically or mentally incapable of helping themselves).
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