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Thread: Minimum Wage Backfire

  1. #61
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
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    Yeah and that's a whole fucking different conversation too, talking about how people are just shitlords who are lazy. Should we assume most people are lazy assholes who want to skate by with minimum wage while buying cigarettes?
    Or do we assume that there's equal or greater portions of people who are actually trying hard to make money and are spending it on the right things. How do we know the guy working at Gap 40 hours a week doesn't actually really like his job?
    There's so many fucking variables it's insane to try and boil it down to anything specific.
    Does the person not know how to go out and "go to school and get a better job" because they didn't have good parents? What happens then? Do we punish them because they think that "life" is working 50 hours a week at Nike?
    I work 30 hours a week and I fucking bust my ass at work but it's just a shitty retail job. Just because it pays minimum wage doesn't mean it's a "cushy, not doing anything ever" job. I still work, and put in effort. How do we manage that aspect?

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Yeah and that's a whole fucking different conversation too, talking about how people are just shitlords who are lazy. Should we assume most people are lazy assholes who want to skate by with minimum wage while buying cigarettes?
    Or do we assume that there's equal or greater portions of people who are actually trying hard to make money and are spending it on the right things. How do we know the guy working at Gap 40 hours a week doesn't actually really like his job?
    There's so many fucking variables it's insane to try and boil it down to anything specific.
    Does the person not know how to go out and "go to school and get a better job" because they didn't have good parents? What happens then? Do we punish them because they think that "life" is working 50 hours a week at Nike?
    I work 30 hours a week and I fucking bust my ass at work but it's just a shitty retail job. Just because it pays minimum wage doesn't mean it's a "cushy, not doing anything ever" job. I still work, and put in effort. How do we manage that aspect?
    yeah, I don't think its fair to bring up the very small number of people who game the system as an excuse to NOT have the system. But to your point; I'm glad you put in effort but if the product of that effort is only worth $8/hr (or whatever), what do you expect? I mean, yeah you should find another job if you want paid more. And if you "really like working the GAP" then do it, but don't expect the GAP to pay you more just because you really like working there. Why would they owe you more than your labor is worth?
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  3. #63
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    Exactly. That's where a huge crux of this issue lies. What do you believe the sweat of a man's brow is worth?
    Do you think that 40 hours at Gap should earn a livable wage? Or do you believe that you have to be putting 40 hours into whatever you consider a "real job" to "earn" the right to live comfortably?
    Living paycheck to paycheck isn't a bad thing. If you're satisfied working 40-50 hours a week at Gap and living in a shitty studio apartment with minimal luxury belongings, then you should be allowed to do that.
    It's the fact that the world is getting more expensive to live in, someone working 40 hours a week at a retail job might not be able to afford food and housing in certain metro areas, and if we believe that minimum wage should equal "minimum living," then the minimum wage in some areas needs to be changed.

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    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    That's where a huge crux of this issue lies. What do you believe the sweat of a man's brow is worth?
    This might be the linchpin of the issue. Should 40 hours at X "minimum" job yield the same standard of living as 30 hours at a more demanding "minimum" Y job? bad question, but i think you get what i am getting at. Pretty much what you said.
    Last edited by hilux; 11/04/2014 at 4:46 pm.


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    Voters in Alaska, Arkansas, Nebraska and South Dakota approved proposals to increase their state-level minimum wages over the next few years.

    They join 12 other states and the District of Columbia, all of which have moved in the past two years to raise their state minimums.

    In Alaska, the minimum wage will rise from $7.75 an hour to $9.75 by 2016.

    In Arkansas, the minimum wage will go from $6.25 an hour to $8.50 by 2017.

    In Nebraska, the hourly wage will go from $7.25 to $9 by 2016.

    And in South Dakota, the minimum wage will go from $7.25 to $8.50 next year. It will be adjusted for inflation after that.

    San Francisco became the second U.S. city to raise its minimum wage to $15 an hour.

    The results show city voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot measure to gradually raise the city’s minimum wage from $10.74 currently. It passed with 77 percent of the vote.

    The decision follows Seattle’s approval in June to raise its minimum wage to $15, the highest level in the nation.

    Under the new law, wages will rise to $11.05 on Jan.1, then $12.25 in May before increasing every year until they reach $15 in 2018. After that, increases will be tied to inflation in the Bay Area.

    San Francisco Mayor Edwin Lee applauded the result and said voters “sent a message loudly and clearly” that “we can take on the growing gap between rich and poor.”

    The move by San Francisco is part of a growing push in cities and states across the nation to give workers a so-called living wage.

    Action at the state and city level has far exceeded that in Congress. The push by Democrats to raise the federal minimum to $10.10 an hour from $7.25 was stalled even before legislation was introduced.

    President Barack Obama, meanwhile, issued an executive order requiring companies with federal contracts to pay their workers at least $10.10.
    http://kwgn.com/2014/11/05/four-stat...-minimum-wage/

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    At one time in my life I worked two full time jobs, first one starting at 7a to 3p, then the next one at 3:30p to 11p (I used my lunch break at my second job to allow me to start shift at 3:30, so I could get there from the first job). I sold ALL of my shit (PS2, guns, stereo, speakers, etc). I lived on ramen noodles, for real. No beer, no ordering out, no fun. All so I could afford to support my now wife for 2 years as she finished school (I only lasted that double job pace for a year, but kept the second job at part time after that). One job paid $3/hr above minimum wage and the second job paid minimum wage. I was able to pay rent, utilities, groceries, car insurance, her books, and a good chunk of her tuition on those earnings. I get that there are people that work hard, I've done it (still work hard, just not that kind of schedule); but I also know that it isn't THAT hard to make ends meet when you're properly motivated and make the right choices. My experience is what informs my beliefs, I'm at least self aware enough to realize some people are incapable of making good choices so it falls to society to lend support. I'd just prefer that support be in the form of "teaching them to fish" rather than "giving them a fish".
    Do you honestly think this is how people should live though? You made a huge sacrifice so 2 years down the road you can live in luxury, but this is how some people live their whole lives. People shouldn't have to work 80 hours a week so they can own nothing and eat ramen. Regardless of how dumb/unskilled someone is this isn't a life that anyone should have in the USA. If you're willing to work hard for 40 hours a week you should be able to afford healthy food and a form of entertainment every once in a while.

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    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    People also shouldn't be killing themselves to stay out of debt, specifically school loans.


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    Do you honestly think this is how people should live though? You made a huge sacrifice so 2 years down the road you can live in luxury, but this is how some people live their whole lives. People shouldn't have to work 80 hours a week so they can own nothing and eat ramen. Regardless of how dumb/unskilled someone is this isn't a life that anyone should have in the USA. If you're willing to work hard for 40 hours a week you should be able to afford healthy food and a form of entertainment every once in a while.
    Of course I don't think that's how they should live. I'm simply sayign the solution to preventing them from living that way is NOT "pay em more". That's all. Artificially inflating the value of labor will not bring them out of poverty, it will merely raise the level at which we consider someone to be in poverty - their circumstances won't change though.

    So again, yes, adjust the minimum to catch up with inflation, that's overdue - but do not for one second think that doing that or adjusting it even higher will bring someone out of poverty. And stop arguing for an adjustment to minimum wage based on "giving people a liveable wage". Many of those jobs aren't meant for someone to live on. The value of that labor is simply too low. If you want to help people get a liveable wage you should be talking about bringing industry back that will hire those people to do a job that's worth a liveable wage. Or talk about making skilled training more accessible so they can get a job that's worth a liveable wage.
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    those last few points are actually exactly what I'm talking about

    Why do you think that Minimum wage jobs "shouldn't earn a livable wage?"
    Why do you have such a hate boner for min wage jobs

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    those last few points are actually exactly what I'm talking about

    Why do you think that Minimum wage jobs "shouldn't earn a livable wage?"
    Why do you have such a hate boner for min wage jobs
    I don't "think minimum wage jobs shouldn't earn a liveable wage". I think SOME jobs which are currently minimum wage are not appropriate for a person to live on because the VALUE of the work is not sufficient. Re-read my post, notice I chose my words carefully so as not to have ^this^ kind of misinterpretation.
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    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    But what if those jobs that you think have lesser value are all someone can get? They shouldn't be punished for that.


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    But what if those jobs that you think have lesser value are all someone can get? They shouldn't be punished for that.
    wat? Does society owe gainful employment to all people? Is that what you're saying?


    EDIT: and they are not "jobs that [I] think have lesser value". I made no comment about whatever may be my opinion of the value of the job whatsoever. I mentioned the value of the labor, and the market dictates that, not me.
    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 11/05/2014 at 2:24 pm.
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    No, that is not what I am saying. The question still applies. If someone gets "stuck" with one of these lower valued labor jobs, they shouldn't be entitled to not struggle? Your opinion is that you think it isn't appropriate for someone to live off of these "jobs."

    If someone worked that job for 40+ hours a week, you think they still deserve to be in poverty?


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. The question still applies. If someone gets "stuck" with one of these lower valued labor jobs, they shouldn't be entitled to not struggle? Your opinion is that you think it isn't appropriate for someone to live off of these "jobs."

    If someone worked that job for 40+ hours a week, you think they still deserve to be in poverty?
    I do not think anyone deserves to live in poverty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    So again, yes, adjust the minimum to catch up with inflation, that's overdue - but do not for one second think that doing that or adjusting it even higher will bring someone out of poverty. And stop arguing for an adjustment to minimum wage based on "giving people a liveable wage". Many of those jobs aren't meant for someone to live on. The value of that labor is simply too low. If you want to help people get a liveable wage you should be talking about bringing industry back that will hire those people to do a job that's worth a liveable wage. Or talk about making skilled training more accessible so they can get a job that's worth a liveable wage.
    Any job where you work for 40 hours a week should mean you can live on it. This isn't some third world country, we live in the US and there's no excuse for someone working that much and not being able to eat while others make money hand over fist from doing nothing.

    The problem now, even with skilled labor, is that people are so desperate for jobs they're willing to get paid less AND do more work. The apathetic attitude people have taken with 'Well I had to suffer for x months living on those wages so you should suffer with them' and 'At least you have a job' is bringing everyone down. Bringing up minimum wage will make others realize their real worth, and help them stop settling for just having any income at all. Nowadays unless you have the market cornered with your skill you're at the mercy of large companies dictating how much you're worth, the value of labor is no longer decided by laborers because they're scared of having nothing. The isn't the fair market that America should be, it's fixed and normal people are on the losing side.

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    Any job where you work for 40 hours a week should mean you can live on it. This isn't some third world country, we live in the US and there's no excuse for someone working that much and not being able to eat while others make money hand over fist from doing nothing.
    So it's the government's job to guarantee gainful employment to all people who work 40 hours in a week? You're both missing the point. If you can't live on working a highschool kid's summer job, that's because you shouldn't be trying to live on a highschool kid's summer job. And the fact that someone else found success is no excuse. If it was that easy, how come the guy trying to live on a highschool kid's summer job isn't doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    The problem now, even with skilled labor, is that people are so desperate for jobs they're willing to get paid less AND do more work. The apathetic attitude people have taken with 'Well I had to suffer for x months living on those wages so you should suffer with them' and 'At least you have a job' is bringing everyone down. Bringing up minimum wage will make others realize their real worth, and help them stop settling for just having any income at all. Nowadays unless you have the market cornered with your skill you're at the mercy of large companies dictating how much you're worth, the value of labor is no longer decided by laborers because they're scared of having nothing. The isn't the fair market that America should be, it's fixed and normal people are on the losing side.
    I'm not saying anybody should suffer. And laborers are only one side of the market that dictates the value of that labor, and you're right, it is fixed and normal people are on the losing end. But I don't think you understand that it's fixed by the government, not employers.
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    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    seriously? trying to label a job as a "highschool kid's summer job"?


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    seriously? trying to label a job as a "highschool kid's summer job"?
    working the fryer at McDonald's is accurately deascribed thusly, yes. I'm trying to find new ways to describe the class of jobs where the labor is worth very little, without you guys thinking I'm making some kind of judgement about the job itself or the person doing it.
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