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Thread: Minimum Wage Backfire

  1. #81
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    i get that those particular jobs aren't very intensive, but if someone did that as a full-time job they deserve to be self-sufficient. If they happen to be some junior in high school living with his parents and no rent, even better for him. Maybe he'll be able to pay for his first year in college upfront.


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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    So it's the government's job to guarantee gainful employment to all people who work 40 hours in a week? You're both missing the point. If you can't live on working a highschool kid's summer job, that's because you shouldn't be trying to live on a highschool kid's summer job. And the fact that someone else found success is no excuse. If it was that easy, how come the guy trying to live on a highschool kid's summer job isn't doing it?.
    It's their job to ensure that the 40 hours of employment they do is gainful. Back in the 60s a highschool kid's summer job could buy a new car, pay for college, etc. The only reason it was a summer job was because they wanted to go to school and get a better job to live a more luxurious life, not because the work pay wasn't gainful.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    I'm not saying anybody should suffer. And laborers are only one side of the market that dictates the value of that labor, and you're right, it is fixed and normal people are on the losing end. But I don't think you understand that it's fixed by the government, not employers.
    If employers could pay less they most certainly would, that doesn't mean the labor they're paying for is worth less. You know that a corporation would short every single of its mid-low level workers just to give the CEO an extra 10k. I'm sick of people saying 'well that's what it's market value is'. That's where it is because we let ourselves be taken advantage of. Are you telling me someone working in a restaurant in france is more skilled than an american restaurant worker? Hell no, it's just that they have the sense to fight for themselves over there.

    People are too short sighted to fix things. You can't tell me the market is going to fix itself and throw out words like 'corporate accountability' like it means anything. Look at Walmart and Apple, people lose their sense of ethics within minutes when their attention span runs out and they keep on going back because it's convenient. If people were smarter they'd stop shopping at Walmart, but here we are with them having employees who are so impoverished that even with their employment they need welfare.

  3. #83
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    It's their job to ensure that the 40 hours of employment they do is gainful. Back in the 60s a highschool kid's summer job could buy a new car, pay for college, etc. The only reason it was a summer job was because they wanted to go to school and get a better job to live a more luxurious life, not because the work pay wasn't gainful.
    Do you know what really changed? The cost of that car and that education (Min wage may be below inflationary adjustments but those things are far above.). And do you know why? *I'll give you a hint if you want one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    If employers could pay less they most certainly would, that doesn't mean the labor they're paying for is worth less. You know that a corporation would short every single of its mid-low level workers just to give the CEO an extra 10k. I'm sick of people saying 'well that's what it's market value is'. That's where it is because we let ourselves be taken advantage of. Are you telling me someone working in a restaurant in france is more skilled than an american restaurant worker? Hell no, it's just that they have the sense to fight for themselves over there.
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    People are too short sighted to fix things. You can't tell me the market is going to fix itself and throw out words like 'corporate accountability' like it means anything. Look at Walmart and Apple, people lose their sense of ethics within minutes when their attention span runs out and they keep on going back because it's convenient. If people were smarter they'd stop shopping at Walmart, but here we are with them having employees who are so impoverished that even with their employment they need welfare.
    First, I agree, but I NEVER said the market would fix itself. People are short sighted, that's why they're arguing about the minimum wage as a means to fix things.


    EDIT: and France's minimum wage is only ~$12.35 per hour. which SHOULD illustrate that the wage side of the equation is not the best place to look for a real solution to folks working full time and not being able to live.
    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 11/05/2014 at 3:27 pm.
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  4. #84
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    dollars to euro edit?


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    dollars to euro edit?
    yeah. I MEANT to reference it in dollars but put in the euro amount, my b
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    just wanted you to know i saw that


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    good for you.


    and again, just so we are clear, I'm not sayign our minimum is not overdue for adjustment.
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  8. #88
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    i got that


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    Fixing wages starts either at the top or the bottom. I'd prefer at the top, but this is at least a start. If I'm making $12 as the manager of a mcdonalds when min wage is $8, then min wage is $11 I'm going to demand more for myself as well. The wage increase will have a ripple affect moving its way upward.

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    well, it'll never happen at the top. as for an adjusted increase to wages that are already above the minimum does seem logical, that doesn't mean you will get it even when demanded. I actually quit a job because the minimum came up right after i received a raise and they wouldn't add it on top of mine.


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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodo View Post
    Fixing wages starts either at the top or the bottom. I'd prefer at the top, but this is at least a start. If I'm making $12 as the manager of a mcdonalds when min wage is $8, then min wage is $11 I'm going to demand more for myself as well. The wage increase will have a ripple affect moving its way upward.
    correct. Which is why people mention inflation. It isn't because the cashier is going to get another couple bucks, it's the entire ripple.


    EDIT: which is the whole problem with artificially inflating the value of labor. But this is certainly the most expedient solution, who gives a shit if it won't be effective and will have negative outcomes - it was fast!
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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    well, it'll never happen at the top. as for an adjusted increase to wages that are already above the minimum does seem logical, that doesn't mean you will get it even when demanded. I actually quit a job because the minimum came up right after i received a raise and they wouldn't add it on top of mine.
    so... you just went and got a different job then?
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    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    so... you just went and got a different job then?
    this was right after high school, and i was a total stoner at the time, but yeah. There was a period of maybe 3-4 months of just lounging around and hanging out with buddies. I lived with my parents still, and could afford to do nothing. I ended up getting a job in a different industry and better pay. This was also pre-2008 shitstorm. I'm different though, being that I am just better than everyone.


    That choice isn't something everyone can have though. Most people probably would have just sucked it up, and just done the job anyway. I felt that for my position and what minimum wage was, the amount of work and responsibility was too close to what people were starting at.
    Last edited by hilux; 11/05/2014 at 3:44 pm.


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    Yeah I'm sorry H.I but it's really hard to have this conversation with how biased you are about "high school kids" jobs. That's not how your logic should work.
    You keep trying to say the government shouldn't be forced to provide gainful employment but that isn't what we are talking about.
    We are simply saying that if you work 40 or more hours a week at any job you should be able to live a normal life obviously the amount of luxury involved differs.
    You need to eliminate your idea that some jobs aren't important. All jobs are important and can be considered a real job.

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Yeah I'm sorry H.I but it's really hard to have this conversation with how biased you are about "high school kids" jobs. That's not how your logic should work.
    You keep trying to say the government shouldn't be forced to provide gainful employment but that isn't what we are talking about.
    We are simply saying that if you work 40 or more hours a week at any job you should be able to live a normal life obviously the amount of luxury involved differs.
    You need to eliminate your idea that some jobs aren't important. All jobs are important and can be considered a real job.
    Hoop you clearly didnt read a fucking thing I posted.

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    You keep trying to say things like "I don't think these jobs or people are lesser..."
    but your posting indicates that you think a hostess at Applebee's shouldn't be able to live comfortably working 40 hours a week. I don't know why you think some jobs shouldn't be able to sustain a person's cost of living.
    Saying things like "The labor is worth very little" is very weird to me.
    Like I said, I'm under the belief that just because you work at Mcdonalds doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to afford rent.

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    You keep trying to say things like "I don't think these jobs or people are lesser..."
    but your posting indicates that you think a hostess at Applebee's shouldn't be able to live comfortably working 40 hours a week. I don't know why you think some jobs shouldn't be able to sustain a person's cost of living.
    Dude. I'm talking about the VALUE of that labor. I don't decide what its worth.

    And She SHOULD be able to live. But the fact is her labor at that job is not worth enough. What you guys are talking about is a government guaranteed Basic salary. You're confusing that system for ours.

    That girl IS worthy and valuable and her work is worth something. Just not enough to live on. So she should probably find another job. Why should her employer pay her MORE than her work is worth because she wants to work a job that is best suited for a part timer?

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Would you guys pay a rate above market value for a service or product, just because?

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    It's not "just because"
    It's to ensure we don't have the working/lower class living in poverty. It's called having more money in the system because it's proven that when lower/middle class people have more money to spend, they spend it on commercial goods and things that help improve the economy/pump money back into the system.
    We shouldn't be forcing people to "find another job" because WE NEED people to work those shitty jobs at Applebee's, or whatever the fuck. We shouldn't be a society of people working 3 part time jobs to make ends meet.

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    this might be how the french revolution happened


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