User Tag List

Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst ... 91011
Results 201 to 217 of 217

Thread: Minimum Wage Backfire

  1. #201
    Bad-ass Member guts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    667
    Points
    84 (415,528 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post
    You have all this faith that "capitalism" will correct itself, but you haven't been able to look at it and see that its never worked that way?
    It has always worked that way. It has no other option. Capitalism isn't a mantra or a lifestyle. It's a natural progression. If you look throughout history, most of the "failures" of capitalism are a direct result of a government fucking with it. Capitalism isn't evil. It doesn't want to steal your girlfriend. It didn't ruffie your sister. It isn't greedy, angry, vindictive, or malicious. It is simply the way economies work themselves out if left alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post

    CEO's and upper management salaries have increased exponentially. The top of the top has increased exponentially. The bottom hasn't.
    You have to realize that a CEO's pay is a drop in the bucket compared to the profit a company makes. In most instances, if you were to take a CEO's pay and divide it evenly between everyone working at a company, it would barely change the amount people already make. My point is that there is no way any large company could afford to offer pay raises to their staff anywhere near what they can offer the top dog. It just wouldn't be feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post
    Jobs are outsourced to countries where they can pay the employees less. Why are they outsourced? $$$$$$$$ PROFIT.
    You're close but you're asking the wrong question. You should be asking: "Why it is profitable to outsource?" When you find the answer to this, you will understand my comments about the government fucking up the flow of capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post

    Your view is that this is a perfect world. It's not. Companies are greedy. All that matters is the bottom line, profit. People need jobs. People need money. People are going to take 5 bucks an hour if it's all they can get, because it's better than 0 bucks an hour. It will not turn into a "Well we all want a job that pays better, so no one is going to work for you until you do!" It'll be 19 people saying that, and then the 20th saying "FUCK MAN. I HAVE A FUCKING FAMILY TO FEED AND THIS IS ALL I CAN GET."

    Supply and demand in the labor force my ass, by the way. Not in un-skilled professions. I had an interview today with UPS for a seasonal gig. I'll be making $9 an hour. If I was doing the exact same thing but 15 miles away from my location, I'd be making $14 an hour. Doing the exact same job.
    The world is not and never has been perfect. I have never claimed otherwise.

    Companies are not greedy. This is a personification of an inanimate object. Do you blame a river for flowing? Do you blame the birds for flapping their wings? Companies, at their most basic level, serve only to make money. That is their purpose. That is why they exist. They are not responsible for you, your life choices, or your ability to add Showtime to your cable subscription. The only reason any company even interacts with anyone is borne out of necessity. Companies require humans to complete tasks in order for the company to do what it is designed to do... make money. In return for the completion of the aforementioned tasks, an agreed upon amount is paid to the employee. Said employee is free to leave at any time to seek more agreeable employment elsewhere.

    But I'm kicking a dead horse here. Lets elaborate on your 20 people looking for a job. In your scenario, there was one job opening and 20 people trying to fill it. What would happen if there were 10 companies with one opening each? Then these companies would be offering more cash in order to obtain the best of the 20 people.

    In short, the answer to all of your concerns is to increase competition. You need to create more jobs than there are people to fill them. The demand for employees needs to outweigh the supply of employees. This simple idea is why a lot of the right wing folks want to cut corporate tax. It isn't a greed thing. If they can cut taxes then companies will hire within the US. If that happens, then competition rises and workers are harder to obtain. If this happens, companies will pay more to get the best labor force. If this happens, then more people will have more money to spend on more products. If this happens, companies will have to hire even more people to keep up with the demand for their products.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post

    When was the last time you were in the job market in a heavily populated area?
    The city I live in that has roughly 1.5 million people (including the surrounding areas). It isn't huge but it definitely isn't small.

  2. #202
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dab City, WA
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,318
    Points
    51,088 (13,134,288 Banked)
    Lol you're really naive to think of capitalism as some perfect way of culture.
    When left unchecked, capitalism doesn't work itself out for everyone. It works itself out for the top 1% of wage earners. Look at the past ten years in the US, where businesses have been lining the pockets of CEO's instead of paying workers (Hostess, Car Industry), and especially shipping jobs overseas. The government isn't forcing any of these things to happen. Capitalism is choosing these things as the best way.
    The fact that you try to even begin to blame the "Government fucking up the flow of capitalism" for companies shipping jobs overseas is fucking laughable.

    You wax intellectual about needing to create jobs blah blah blah, when capitalism has done the exact opposite here in our country. The real fact is that there ARE people behind these companies, and they DO have agendas. I don't know why you can't understand that there is a level of greed when it comes to business.
    Last edited by The Hoop; 11/19/2014 at 7:52 am.

  3. #203
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Actually the government has a large part to do with jobs going out of country, specifically manufacturing jobs. If you look at our regulatory environment, and the outsized power of unions compared to other industrialized countries (there are some countries worse than us obv, but many are better) for a comparison. In the last 10 years you can also look at the policies Canada has adopted to create jobs compared to US policies that drive them away, for a really good case study in the role government plays in directing the free market.

    Now, this does not mean the antithesis is true, that there should be no regulation - simply that we have created a regulatory environment that is prohibitive rather than effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  4. #204
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Esquamulose View Post
    People are not being paid in proportion to their contribution. That's why the income/wage gap is as fucked as it has been in 80 years.
    again, I don't think you can rightly credit the worker for much, and certainly not all, of the increases in productivity. Those are predominantly the result of changes in management, technology, and processes - things which the worker is not responsible for. And yeah, the income disparity is the greatest it's been in ~80 years. But this isn't the first time in history that it's been this way. There are other correlates than "corporate greed" imho

    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 11/19/2014 at 8:38 am.
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  5. #205
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dab City, WA
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,318
    Points
    51,088 (13,134,288 Banked)
    You are forgetting to mention that plenty of these companies that outsourced, simply did it to cut costs. They didn't want to employ Americans because it was "too expensive"
    Which is bullshit because some of those companies have huge profit margins.

  6. #206
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    You are forgetting to mention that plenty of these companies that outsourced, simply did it to cut costs. They didn't want to employ Americans because it was "too expensive"
    Which is bullshit because some of those companies have huge profit margins.
    Well, that's debateable if it's bullshit or not. I mean, we can disagree with it, but when every company is doing it because of cost - there's probably a reason.

    And honestly if you read through a bunch of literature on the topic the factor that comes up the most is our aging workforce. "Seasoned" workers ARE more expensive with their accumulation of raises and benefits, etc - compared to younger workers. That's something that regulation can't control.


    And I'd just like to reiterate that "greed" is not necessarily a bad thing. The only reason people do anything is due to some form of greed - why do you go to work? to make money. Why do you invest? to make money. That's why it's called business and not charity. The problem, I think, can more precisely be explained by companies seeking more profit and finding MUCH more profit in moving workforce to other countries. If it were less prohibitive to have a domestic workforce, I think the factor of aging workforce would have much less influence.

    I take comfort in the fact that all things cycle. This too shall end, as it should - I just do not agree that the end will be the result of MORE regulation.



    EDIT:

    I really like this passage from this article in USA Today:
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...overseas_n.htm

    What America can do
    One way to stem the tide is to give big business more of what it wants: lower taxes, visas for foreign workers, less regulation and the rest of the usual corporate wish list. But this won't end it.
    To make America the first choice for our global employers, we must focus not directly on their needs, but on what our citizens need to be the most valuable workers in the world, and our communities need to be the best places to do business. How about stronger incentives that push adults to invest in themselves and keep their skills cutting edge? Cities and regions need to focus on their unique assets. Local natural, intellectual and social resources that cannot be easily found elsewhere can be bulwarks against the global forces that sweep jobs away and devalue older workers. When we, as individuals and citizens, are at our peak, then the ever-flatter world of multinationals will not flatten our economy or us.

    In my opinion the best role of government in this situation is to foster that kind of environment to "direct" the market's movements, rather than attempt to dictate them.
    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 11/19/2014 at 9:04 am.
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  7. #207
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dab City, WA
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,318
    Points
    51,088 (13,134,288 Banked)
    What do "Seasoned workers" have to do with companies shipping low wage jobs like phone/tech support overseas? That's the majority of the jobs that have been exported. These are jobs that young people could have come in and used

    and I'm sorry, but most big businesses have shown that when given free reign, they fuck shit up more than they solve anything, it's never about MORE regulations, it's about having the RIGHT regulations.

  8. #208
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    What do "Seasoned workers" have to do with companies shipping low wage jobs like phone/tech support overseas? That's the majority of the jobs that have been exported. These are jobs that young people could have come in and used

    and I'm sorry, but most big businesses have shown that when given free reign, they fuck shit up more than they solve anything, it's never about MORE regulations, it's about having the RIGHT regulations.

    Bolded is incorrect, and red is so fucking spot on you just gave me a boner
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  9. #209
    Misanthrope hilux's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Paradigm City
    Age
    28
    Posts
    29,294
    Points
    53,427 (19,474,602 Banked)
    Except phone support is one of the most outsourced jobs


    Quote Originally Posted by HipHoptimus View Post
    Hold on can't hear you, kicking this bee's nest.
    hilux.LA

  10. #210
    Join or Die Senex IV's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    illadelph
    Age
    31
    Posts
    6,103
    Points
    4,666 (279,156 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Lol you're really naive to think of capitalism as some perfect way of culture.
    When left unchecked, capitalism doesn't work itself out for everyone. It works itself out for the top 1% of wage earners. Look at the past ten years in the US, where businesses have been lining the pockets of CEO's instead of paying workers (Hostess, Car Industry), and especially shipping jobs overseas. The government isn't forcing any of these things to happen. Capitalism is choosing these things as the best way.
    The fact that you try to even begin to blame the "Government fucking up the flow of capitalism" for companies shipping jobs overseas is fucking laughable.

    You wax intellectual about needing to create jobs blah blah blah, when capitalism has done the exact opposite here in our country. The real fact is that there ARE people behind these companies, and they DO have agendas. I don't know why you can't understand that there is a level of greed when it comes to business.
    what you and eq are failing to recognize is the job that ceo's do. do you think just anyone can run a multinational corporation? do you know the number of moving parts involved? have you ever taken a business applications course? or any upper level finance course? the shit is not easy. the requirements to do the low-level job are not anywhere near the requirements to do high-level work. when you can do the high-level work i'm sure you wont be going around saying its not worth large sums of money. when mcdonalds posts a profit who is more responsible for the total sum? the front-line burger flipper or the people negotiating prices, organizing labor, sourcing materials, paying bills etc etc

    you can't seem to or dont want to recognize the incredible mental task it is to do these kinds of jobs. why shouldn't they pay more than some day laborer who doesnt even have to graduate highschool to perform the task? you're not counting the fucking work, intellect, and ability it takes to run a fucking huge monster corporation. even just one division of it.

    if you say "it isn't that hard" why aren't you making millions then?
    Quote Originally Posted by AftermatH View Post
    she wants you to jerk the dog off to completion... you know, cause as the burden of proof is on you
    we are the industry

  11. #211
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by hilux View Post
    Except phone support is one of the most outsourced jobs
    Phone support is outsourced - it is not, however, "the majority of jobs that have been exported". Sorry. It just isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  12. #212
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dab City, WA
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,318
    Points
    51,088 (13,134,288 Banked)
    Well hilux just said "one of the most" exported jobs
    Also jesus christ Moat go stick your face up Ayn Rand's ass a little bit more why don't you.
    It's a question of when you already make 10 billion dollars, do you really need to outsource jobs to India so you can make another billion a year?

  13. #213
    Join or Die Senex IV's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    illadelph
    Age
    31
    Posts
    6,103
    Points
    4,666 (279,156 Banked)
    i also failed to mention that oftentimes ceo's are shareholders.. which means part owner. tell me again how more profit is bad thing and why the owners don't deserve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by AftermatH View Post
    she wants you to jerk the dog off to completion... you know, cause as the burden of proof is on you
    we are the industry

  14. #214
    Bad-ass Member guts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    667
    Points
    84 (415,528 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoop View Post
    Well hilux just said "one of the most" exported jobs
    Also jesus christ Moat go stick your face up Ayn Rand's ass a little bit more why don't you.
    It's a question of when you already make 10 billion dollars, do you really need to outsource jobs to India so you can make another billion a year?
    You need to consider the bigger picture. Lets use Microsoft as an example. Bill Gates (no longer the CEO but he'll work) made and continues to make billions from this company. How did he make all that money? It isn't as simple as taking at 10% cut of every sale of Windows and Office. Back in 1986, the company filed for an IPO. The shares skyrocketed and created thousands of millionaires and a few billionaires... all employees.

    So fast forward and assume that Microsoft outsourced their tech support to India. Lets also assume that Bill Gates gained an extra $1billion from the endeavor (this is all hypothetical). Why would he do that? Your assumption is that he's hoarding cash and being greedy. Maybe greed has something to do with it but you have to consider the mechanics of being publicly traded. Your primary job as the CEO of a publicly traded company is to keep your shareholders happy. You can only do that by increasing the share price. You can only increase the share price by selling more items or cutting operating costs. Usually, companies will endeavor to sell more AND cut operating costs.

    What happens if a CEO doesn't keep the shareholders happy? He gets fired. Each shareholder has the right to a proxy vote. The more shares you own, the more influence you have. If the board is pressed, they will be left with no other option than to ditch the CEO at a minimum. This kind of thing happens all the time. If a company's shares drop then the shareholders will force the company to lop off its own head.

    So what does this have to do with your "so you can make another billion" comment? First, a lot of the pay a CEO earns is in the form of preferred shares. If they don't do their job well then they get paid much less. Second, no CEO makes "billions". Owners make billions. Third, there is a responsibility to shareholders and bondholders. These are real people trusting their real money to the ability of the CEO to make their investment grow. These aren't just hedge funds and mutual funds. These are your neighbors on Scottrade. These are the IRAs and 401k's of millions. This should be you and everyone else on this forum.

    Could Bill Gates sell a ton of his shares and use the cash to give everyone a quick cash infusion? Yes and No. The shares would have to be liquidated in order to turn them into a pay raise for Microsoft employees. If you throw that many shares on the open market, you will tank the stock price and royally piss off the multitude of investors relying on you to help them retire. Additionally, this would be a temporary measure. If Bill Gates dumped $1billion in stock and gave an equal share to each employee then each person would get a one-time cash infusion of roughly $8000. That assumes that the $1billion in stock doesn't plummet too far before it's fully liquidated.

    So, if you're Bill and want to help out the people working for you then what do you do? Simply handing over the cash isn't really going to help anyone. In fact, it will do more harm than good. What if Bill were to offer shares to his employees through a stock purchase program and then make those shares go up in value? How does he make the share price climb? He saves millions in taxes, benefits costs, and labor rates by hiring a third party company to field all of the tech support calls from India. He outsources anything and everything he can to ensure that his operating costs are as low as possible.

    Why would he need to outsource? Because it's cheaper. Why is it cheaper? The US corporate tax rate is retardedly high and the US government requires that you give American employees a shitload of expensive benefits. Greed isn't the issue. The problem is that it shouldn't be cheaper to build and operate a plant in Mexico, ship the goods, pay the tariffs, and still be able to save a ton of cash in the process.

    And despite all of this, you want to raise the minimum wage even more. You want to compound the issue further. You want to make it even less profitable to do business in the US.

    Your views, despite being compassionate and well-meaning, are shortsighted and ill conceived. You need to understand how companies function and push for reforms that fall within that framework instead of spouting all of this vitriolic rhetoric. If you take away one single thing from this long-ass post then let it be this: Your hate is misplaced.

  15. #215
    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,844
    Points
    4,284 (2,291,033 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by guts View Post
    #realtalk.
    Quote Originally Posted by gannon View Post
    Cumfarts are
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagga Viagra View Post
    Never trust a nut.

  16. #216
    Spengler chillestbrocop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Philly
    Age
    31
    Posts
    7,516
    Points
    1,824 (2,316,585 Banked)
    God damn.

  17. #217
    The Saltiest The Hoop's Avatar
    Entense Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dab City, WA
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,318
    Points
    51,088 (13,134,288 Banked)
    That's a huge wall of text that doesn't really state anything that changes my stance on this subject. I've never said to raise the minimum wage more than a cost of living.
    Also all of that bullshit you spouted about Microsoft? What does that even matter? Do you feel smart now that you've explained the basics of how a business works? Did you think that we didn't know the information you just laid out? We aren't in fucking first grade.
    You typed that whole thing to try and what? Justify the possibility of Microsoft sending jobs overseas? I never said anything about "handing cash to employees"
    You just typed a whole wall of text for no reason lol. Talk about a lot of hot air. You picked Microsoft, bravo, one of the best companies to work for, and Bill Gates who's one of the most charitable people ever. Bravo, why don't you examine a business that isn't so angelic.


    Why would he need to outsource? Because it's cheaper. Why is it cheaper? The US corporate tax rate is retardedly high and the US government requires that you give American employees a shitload of expensive benefits. Greed isn't the issue. The problem is that it shouldn't be cheaper to build and operate a plant in Mexico, ship the goods, pay the tariffs, and still be able to save a ton of cash in the process.
    I've never disagreed with this. I've actually agreed that there's tons of problems involved with our Government and the way they let businesses work. I mean shit, we still need to repeal that fucking bill that allows businesses to spend money on political campaigns.
    It's too bad though, because Greed is an issue, both at the corporate level, and at the Government level. It's what's causing most of this. American's can't see past dollar signs. They don't realize that it's just paper, or numbers in a bank account. Rich keep getting richer, poor keep getting poorer.
    'Murica, home of the brave, land of the impoverished.
    Last edited by The Hoop; 12/19/2014 at 11:06 am.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •