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Thread: Ted Cruz Compares Himself to Galileo, Calls Those Who Believe In Climate Change 'Flat-Earthers' | Th

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    Oh. So how does this research explain the lack of inflation in their hypothesis?
    Why would that cause inflation? The raising of CEO pay over the past decade hasn't. Well it wouldn't have if minimum wage was increased...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    Why would that cause inflation? The raising of CEO pay over the past decade hasn't. Well it wouldn't have if minimum wage was increased...
    Do you understand the difference between demand related expense and command related expense?

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    No, what do you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    So let's be clear, I agree the minimum wage needs adjustment. I disagree that it will bring someone out of poverty (which is the stated reasoning for it). That link explains the actual good that comes from adjusting the minimum to meet inflation. Says nothing to your assertions about extra cash and raising people out of poverty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    So let's be clear, I agree the minimum wage needs adjustment. I disagree that it will bring someone out of poverty (which is the stated reasoning for it). That link explains the actual good that comes from adjusting the minimum to meet inflation. Says nothing to your assertions about extra cash and raising people out of poverty.
    How does having extra money not help raise someone out of poverty? They can actually save money for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    Elizabeth Warren needs to run.
    No thanks, Id take *shudder* bill Clinton over her. I can't believe I said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    People who work fulltime but can't pay their bills are getting fucked.
    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    Retail and fast food mostly. Most of the jobs someone who works for minimum wage are qualified for also pay minimum wage. So quitting would be useless.
    So the people who have no skill to do anything else are getting fucked because all they can do is menial tasks? How many of the people you knew in HS who were bad asses saying "fuck school" or "screw math i'll never use this shit" working fast food? I know a bunch who are and I do not feel sorry for them. Fast food and retail is not supposed to be a life long career, it is supposed to be temporary or for teenagers. If you are 40 and have put no effort into finding some kind of skill for better employment man I do not feel sorry for you.

    There is a guy here who worked a crappy job and he worked his ass off to get a skill to give him a better paying job.



    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    I'm not. I'm just putting the blame where it belongs for the government shutdowns. They always try to blame that shit on Obama.
    Pretty sure the dems were just as stubborn. If your "compromise" tactic is to say fuck you do it our way or you will be responsible for the shut down, blame lies on both sides.

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    People trying to provide for their families shouldn't be forced to live in abject poverty. Many cannot afford to take time off from making money to go to school. If minimum wage had increased with inflation and worker productivity, it would be at $15/hr.


    Also, the blame lies with those who were unwilling to compromise: in this case, the conservatives. Negotiations are only possible if both sides are willing.

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    What do you have against Elizabeth Warren?

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    So you say those who were unwilling to compromise, did you see Obama bellying up to the negotiating table? He made a pretty strong point that it will be his way or no way. That is not compromising. To compromise both sides must give up something in exchange for something else.


    My problem with Warren? She is a super rich person for whom has no idea what is like to be middle class. She doesn't belong as president, same goes for anyone else who is super rich, their perspective of the common person is not there. She also has an abhorrent view of the 2nd amendment and firearms, but that will be no different than any other liberal candidate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    How does having extra money not help raise someone out of poverty? They can actually save money for a change.
    My point is that your assertion is a fallacy.
    Commentary on study ->http://www.cato.org/blog/new-study-f...killed-workers
    link to study ->http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724?ut...utm_source=ntw
    another related commentary ->http://reason.com/archives/2009/07/2...nimum-wage-mir

    And AGAIN to be clear, my criticism is in "significant" increases of min wage - we agree it is overdue for inflationary adjustment. And untimately my criticism is of your assertion that the minimum wage can change someone's circumstance.

    Look, regardless which version you discuss, it is ignorant to ignore the inflationary pressures that result from raising the minimum wage. See Seattle's experiment on $10/hr for direct evidence. (and that's not the only evidence, just the most expedient) The fact of the matter is you could set the minimum wage to whatever you want - it will not significantly change someone's circumstance - it will simply raise the level at which we define "poverty".

    Please, don't mistake my commentary like jaye does to assume I disagree with these kinds of "liberal" ideals, I don't. I simply disagree with the liberal methods, as well as the conservative methods btw.

    Now, look at the larger picture of the "jobs market". To understand this realistically you first have to divorce your empathetic emotions and understand that labor is a commodity (if you can't do that then we have no reason to continue). And like any commodity it is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you artificially increase the cost of the commodity, you do not automatically increase it's value. So those that must purchase the commodity must respond, typically in one of to ways: either raise prices to offset the increased cost (inflation), or find a way to use less of the commodity (automation). Either way, you're left with the result of no extra cash at the end of the month OR more people struggling to find work.

    And that's just unskilled labor (min wage earners). Think about how other government intervention into the labor market has failed to achieve the intended goal, and simply created a new and/or different problem. For example, we agree that all people should have an "education". but we foolishly assumed "education" should mean a 4yr degree, so we federally back student loans so anybody can have student debt that's willing to sign for it. Now we are upset that so many college grads can't find good work because there's too much competition, because we devalued the degree by over-supplying degree-holders. Well what did we expect?

    At this point the minimum wage is a necessary evil. Eliminating it (an ultra conservative ideal) would cause more harm than good. But if we can all agree that labor is a commodity, maybe we can be smarter about how we intervene, so we can see an intended result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    No, what do you mean?
    CEO pay is a demand related expense, and labor costs is a command related expense (when you have a minimum wage earning labor force). The CEO is paid according to what the market will bear for what that CEO can do for the company. In short, the CEO adds to the bottom line (at least he's supposed to, that's his role). Labor is still an expense - part of the cost of production. That's why increased CEO pay does not significantly drive inflation, because that person is adding to the bottom line more than they are taking away from it; and if they don't do that they get fired and a new CEO is hired. It is not a part of the cost of production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    CEO pay is a demand related expense, and labor costs is a command related expense (when you have a minimum wage earning labor force). The CEO is paid according to what the market will bear for what that CEO can do for the company. In short, the CEO adds to the bottom line (at least he's supposed to, that's his role). Labor is still an expense - part of the cost of production. That's why increased CEO pay does not significantly drive inflation, because that person is adding to the bottom line more than they are taking away from it; and if they don't do that they get fired and a new CEO is hired. It is not a part of the cost of production.
    Doesn't worker productivity add to the bottom line too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    My point is that your assertion is a fallacy.
    Commentary on study ->http://www.cato.org/blog/new-study-f...killed-workers
    link to study ->http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724?ut...utm_source=ntw
    another related commentary ->http://reason.com/archives/2009/07/2...nimum-wage-mir

    And AGAIN to be clear, my criticism is in "significant" increases of min wage - we agree it is overdue for inflationary adjustment. And untimately my criticism is of your assertion that the minimum wage can change someone's circumstance.

    Look, regardless which version you discuss, it is ignorant to ignore the inflationary pressures that result from raising the minimum wage. See Seattle's experiment on $10/hr for direct evidence. (and that's not the only evidence, just the most expedient) The fact of the matter is you could set the minimum wage to whatever you want - it will not significantly change someone's circumstance - it will simply raise the level at which we define "poverty".

    Please, don't mistake my commentary like jaye does to assume I disagree with these kinds of "liberal" ideals, I don't. I simply disagree with the liberal methods, as well as the conservative methods btw.

    Now, look at the larger picture of the "jobs market". To understand this realistically you first have to divorce your empathetic emotions and understand that labor is a commodity (if you can't do that then we have no reason to continue). And like any commodity it is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you artificially increase the cost of the commodity, you do not automatically increase it's value. So those that must purchase the commodity must respond, typically in one of to ways: either raise prices to offset the increased cost (inflation), or find a way to use less of the commodity (automation). Either way, you're left with the result of no extra cash at the end of the month OR more people struggling to find work.

    And that's just unskilled labor (min wage earners). Think about how other government intervention into the labor market has failed to achieve the intended goal, and simply created a new and/or different problem. For example, we agree that all people should have an "education". but we foolishly assumed "education" should mean a 4yr degree, so we federally back student loans so anybody can have student debt that's willing to sign for it. Now we are upset that so many college grads can't find good work because there's too much competition, because we devalued the degree by over-supplying degree-holders. Well what did we expect?

    At this point the minimum wage is a necessary evil. Eliminating it (an ultra conservative ideal) would cause more harm than good. But if we can all agree that labor is a commodity, maybe we can be smarter about how we intervene, so we can see an intended result.
    Also, the Cato institute and reason.Com are founded and funded by the Koch brothers. Not exactly unbiased sources.

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    Engorged Member H.I. McDunnough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    Also, the Cato institute and reason.Com are founded and funded by the Koch brothers. Not exactly unbiased sources.
    more or less than thinkprogress and huffpo?

    Also, the study is from The National Bureau of Economic Research. Which is generally free market leaning but widely regarded as bipartisan. So, ignore the other two links and just read the study, if that makes you feel better

    EDIT: but other than the sources, any thoughts on what I presented?
    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 4/08/2015 at 12:07 pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid a View Post
    Doesn't worker productivity add to the bottom line too?
    Sure, but not typically from the sector of labor we're discussing (min wage earners) because they are generally unskilled, uninvested, temporary, etc. And increases in productivity are generally the result of imporvements in processes or automation. Is it the role of a min wage earner to concern himself with improving productivity, or simply to do the job as prescribed for the prescribed amount of time? Or to look at it another way: when they do (concern themselves with increased productivity and add to the bottom line), do they typically remain a min wage worker?

    You're confusing the contributions of unskilled, minimum wage labor with higher level labor.
    Last edited by H.I. McDunnough; 4/08/2015 at 12:11 pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    Sure, but not typically from the sector of labor we're discussing (min wage earners) because they are generally unskilled, uninvested, temporary, etc. And increases in productivity are generally the result of imporvements in processes or automation. Is it the role of a min wage earner to concern himself with improving productivity, or simply to do the job as prescribed for the prescribed amount of time? Or to look at it another way: when they do (concern themselves with increased productivity and add to the bottom line), do they typically remain a min wage worker?

    You're confusing the contributions of unskilled, minimum wage labor with higher level labor.
    I mean the minimum wage sector increasing their productivity by working harder, on average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.I. McDunnough View Post
    more or less than thinkprogress and huffpo?

    Also, the study is from The National Bureau of Economic Research. Which is generally free market leaning but widely regarded as bipartisan. So, ignore the other two links and just read the study, if that makes you feel better

    EDIT: but other than the sources, any thoughts on what I presented?
    I think you make an interesting point, but it doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint that raising one entire group's wages cause inflation while raising another group's doesn't. Especially since the raise in CEO pay is by so much more than the minimum wage sector.

    Also, I think my sources show that minimum wage wouldn't cause inflation. Or if it did, it would be marginal.

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